The State of Men Episode 02

Aydian
For this episode, we might have antler screaming in the background welcomes to the morning at the Dowlings.

Mike
That's fine. That is completely acceptable.
Aydian
Welcome to the state of men. I'm Aiden Dowling.
Mike
Oh, and I'm Mike Watts. I forgot that.
Aydian
That's who you are. Yeah, that's right. It is episode two. And in today's episode, we're going to introduce you to us. Who the hell are we? And, uh, if you don't know, you get an L by the end of today's episode. So Mike, Mr. Mike, now living in Maine, Nope. Living in Maine, be living in Miami, born and raised in.
Oh ,
Mike
I was born in Casper, Wyoming, and then I went from Wyoming to Kansas, Alabama, Louisiana. And then I was pretty much raised to grew up in Indiana
Aydian
wow. Those
are all states that I was scared of growing up.
Mike
Why?
Aydian
Because I was born in New York, long island and like, you know, anything past Philadelphia was like the wild west. Okay.
Mike
Um, okay. I'm following what's happening,
Aydian
you know, until you hit California and then you were like fine again. And then also like, you know, being LGBT, like once you say, like Indiana, Louisiana, Mississippi, any of those times and everybody else. Yeah. Yeah. You're just kinda like, you know what, I'm just going to stay here. Like you can go there. I'll be over here
Mike
I have friends who grew up in, um, San Diego, like in Sandy. And I saw them a few times when I was out there and they never. Made it past the Mississippi. Like they were never, and they were only even close to Mississippi, Mississippi river one time. And so I always used to make fun of them. Like you guys never got this whole California idea. Now they live in Tennessee and they run a country rebel, like company. And they created their whole business around like country music and social media around country, whole thing. And I was like, what a shift? Like how, what a shift you guys went from? Like these, I mean, toll, you think San Diego surfer guys, like, that's what they were. And uh,
Aydian
yeah.
Mike
Now they're in, in, uh, Tennessee running country, rebel,
Aydian
you know, you never know where you're going to be. Never know what you're going to get in life.
Mike
You never know where you're going to get, how are you doing before we dive into this?
Aydian
Good, good. Doing good. Feeling good. Um, got my, my squirrel mug for some energy today. Going to Antler's preschool so it's going to be fun. I'm excited.
Mike
That's good. You're squirrel mug, the plant. Are you doing, is he, you're not dropping him off. It's just a,
Aydian
no, this is a tour. Yeah. So we're going to go for a tour, check it out. Um, but I am excited because it's a school. Like, it goes up to fifth grade. It's not just like a cool, like a no shade, but like a glorified daycare, you know? Um, or anything like that. So cause if he really likes it and we like it, he set like he's set for like what feels like forever. Cause fifth grade feels very far away from right.
Mike
It's practically like he's graduated college. Right?
Aydian
Exactly. That's kind of what if I've already kept it and like, so when I'm 40, he'll be like nine and like, that feels pretty good. Like I feel like by 40 I can get my life back to some capacity, you know? Um, so, but yeah. What about you? Anything going on today or this weekend or anything?
Mike
Uh, w you know, just in that process of moving, which we talked about, and we, yeah, I, uh, I just wrote the email this morning, because for some reason I woke up at three 30 and so I've been up since 3:30 AM, and I wrote my intro email to like, launch my consulting practice again, you know, I used to do a lot more consulting and I stopped for a past couple of years. So I got that done, which is fine.
Aydian
Did you send it out already at three 30 in the morning.
Mike
No, I didn't write it until probably five 30, but I did. I've been doing meditate, meditating and Wim Hof breathing in the morning, and he has a meditation audio series I've been going through as well. So I'm like getting all that stuff. Earner. I made tea, you know, stuff like that. Yeah, look at me. And so I'm like, by the time he wakes up at like six 30, I'm just like, ready, you know, I'm ready to ready to go. I need some time, like you can not do it, you know? And then the kids wake up. So I'm like jazz with the kids, the whole thing.
Aydian
So that's good for the kids. I mean, I dunno whenever if I wake up and it's three 30, I just go, oh, that means it's time to go back to bed. But clearly you get a different alarm that says, Hey, it's three 30. Let's wake up to
Mike
it depends on when I go to sleep. So if I'm in bed before nine, like last night, we were in bed at like eight 40, but I fell asleep around nine.
If I fall asleep around nine, I mean that's six and a half hours of sleep. Pretty much, you know, in six and a half to seven hours of sleep is really kind of six and a half to seven and a half hours is like my sweet spot for sleep wise. So I think it's early, but really it's kind of, that's an adequate amount of time. And then if I don't get woken up in the middle of the night, either from, you know, some random child coming in, then I sleep straight. I can function pretty good.
Aydian
Great. Well, that's exciting. I hope it goes extremely well for you.
Mike
What do you going to do today?
Aydian
No, I mean, you're coaching and everything consultant.
Mike
Yeah. Rest of the day for waiting,
Aydian
you know, but I also feel like I wouldn't be surprised if you were like, You know, Voxer me like, oh, just woke up from a little nap.
Mike
Yeah. Today I don't really have that. Today's busy. Like I got up. It's pretty action packed. So I should be pretty good. Usually if I wake up that early, I'm pretty good for the day.
Aydian
Sounds great.
Mike
We'll see how it goes. Um, some of the, we didn't address this in episode one, but I figured I'd just pointed out. You're going to start noticing background changes for Aydian so it's gone. And also for me as I shift, um, yeah, there's a lot happening. So Aydian's background will change come, max, uh, you know, in the very near future,
Aydian
probably change again a little later in the year also.
Mike
So we do not have professional studios. No one is funding us to set up professional studio. We are in our houses you're in your garage actually. It's,
Aydian
I've got a very classy $10 Lasko fan right below me that, uh, I turned on when we're not recording because it's hot as hell in Texas in your garage. Um, you know, but one day, one day, someday soon, this is what I always say one day, someday soon.
Mike
Uh, all right. So let's dive into who is Aiden who's Aiden. Who are you?
Aydian
Who am I question?
Mike
I end up a little bit, like, how did you, and where were you born? What time? What day? Um, kind of like how, I think a little bit about how did you end up here? Like, how did we end? We, you know, last episode, we talked about why we're doing this. And so how is it that you ended up, like, in this spot that we're currently sitting, talking about this.
Aydian
So like, yeah, yeah, yeah. So for many of you probably know, but for the few who don't, I'm transgender. So that means I was assigned female at birth and identify as male. And so I decided around the age of 21 to start taking hormone replacement therapy, AKA HRT to, uh, kind of shut down the estrogen, rev up the testosterone. And what happens when you take HRT is you develop secondary male characteristics. So you grow a beard and your voice deepens a little bit, your body fat redistributes, um, all of those things. So now it just now, you know, now I always say that, like, I just looked like a dude, like, it just looked like a white dude. Um, and. I think, you know, talking about masculinity. I mean, I was stepping into a world that I was unfamiliar with. So born and raised, uh, long island, New York always called the tomboy when I was younger. And it's funny. I'll never forget this one time. I just was like crying and like, I was very, I have two older brothers and so we were just like punching each other and like wrestling each other, very physical. And they kept calling me a tomboy and I didn't even know what it meant. I just knew that it wasn't something good for a girl to be called. Um, because of the way that they, they said it was like taunting. Right. It was like, I don't even know what this word means. It's like when you first learn a curse word, you're like, I don't know what fuck means, but everyone says it in this really aggressive way. It must be something bad. So I grew up very tomboy. Um, the first time I ever got sent to the principal's office was in fifth grade when the teacher told, like we had the classes were all coming together was like three fifth grade classes. And we were gonna all watch a movie together. And the teacher was like, okay, like all the girls go into this room and all the boys pick up the chairs and we're going to bring them into the other room. So we have enough chairs and I picked up a chair and started moving it. And my teacher was like, no, no, like, you're not like you don't have to move a chair. And I remember looking at her with the chair of my hand. I remember exactly what kind of chair it was too. It was green like this, like olive green. And I was like, I can pick up a chair like, okay, this is not verbatim, but this is how I remember. I remember being. I can pick up a chair and she's like, no, you don't have to. And I was just like, no, like I'm going to I'm to move the chair. And once she said, you didn't have to, it was like, okay, well now I'm just going to move all the chairs. Right. Like I had that kind of like feisty energy. I was like, well, if you say I can't move one, I'm going to be moving all of them, just so you know. Um, so I was just like, like, no, I'm going to move the chair. So I moved the chair and then I came back with the boys and like kept moving the chairs. And I guess she just didn't like that. I wasn't listening to her. Like I was, you know, um, fighting the authority and she sent me down to the principals thing. Yes, I was resisting. Yes. And I got sent to the principal's office and I remember the principal, like looking at me and I'm looking at him and he's like, you know, why are you here? And he just kept was like, why didn't you listen, da, like, you know? Um, and it was just very, like, um, and so I always just, you know, and then sixth grade hit and I was, went to Catholic school was forced to wear like a skirt. And I always wore like my gym shorts underneath it, like my, like, you know, basketball, gym shorts underneath and played best, uh, played football and got really outcast. One time I didn't get invited to a party. The popular girl's birthday party was the only one out of the whole class that didn't get invited. And I don't know where I had. The guts to ask this girl, but I literally I was not a confident person, but I think I just was angry. So like, if I was angry, it like made my confidence, just like skyrocket. I remember asking her like, why didn't I get invited? And she was like, cause I don't want someone to turn it into a soccer game, which pretty much just meant, like, I was really sporty and that like, I was going to come and like, you know, fuck up her party. Um, and so I just, at a young age just was kind of learned that I was not right. Like something about how I expressed myself. Wasn't okay. And of many other instances, like being sent home from birthday parties, like sleepover birthday parties? I think because I'm in my thoughts are like I went to the birthday party and the mom was like, this is a big lesbian. She can't sleep here with all my daughters and my daughter and her friends. And then I would just like be sent home before. Things like the nighttime happened and I never understood why my mom never told me why. And, um, but I pretty much was a masculine little girl and my masculinity, the re I think, as I got older and I started expressing my masculinity in a safer way. Cause now 15, 16, I'm wearing boys clothes, I'm stealing my brother's clothes. Like so classic stealing his clothes and then like spilling something on it and being like, shit, you know what I mean?
Mike
Like he knew somebody was wearing.
Right. Um, so I would like steal his clothes. I would like, you know, go shopping with my friends and then like buy things on the DL. Like I, like, I always would buy like American Eagle boxer briefs and like, I wouldn't tell anyone about it. Um, and so, you know, I just was expressing this masculinity and as I got older, it just grew and grew and grew. And then I hit a moment. Um, so when it comes to this podcast and masculinity, it was always something that was who I was, and it was the way I express it was always questioned based on the body that I was born in. And so to me, i, my dad was in my life, but not in a, in a major way. Um, my parents got divorced young when I was super young and had shared custody. So I did have a relationship with my dad, but it wasn't like super tight. I didn't see him all the time. Um, so again, I didn't really have a big example of what. Being a man in the world was except for TV and movies and TRL MTV.
Are you looking at this as like, what is my example of being a man?
Aydian
I think when I was, you know, I didn't think of it as being a man. I just like replicated the guys that I saw. So like I loved NSYNC. I was obsessed with NYSNC and my mom would always be like, oh, she loves and sync dada. And like, I think she always thought, because I liked them. Like, I thought they were hot or cute, but like I never thought of myself as like, yeah, they're singing to me. It was always like, I'm singing to all the girls and I'm on the stage and I'm likeswooning them and I'm getting to learn all the moves. Right. Um, and it was okay for me to listen to that stuff because I wasn't being raised as a little boy. It wasn't like. You know, at the same time, like Slipknot was like really popular as NSYNC right.
Mike
This was before you started taking hormones.
Aydian
Yeah. This was when I was young. I was like 16, 15. Um, and so when I did start taking hormones, it was so interesting because I was like, wow, I am a man. And I know I am, but I don't really exactly know what that means in the world. Like how to socially be a man, like, what is socially acceptable? What are the things like, you know, th you know, this was my thinking back then, just being honest, it was like, what can I, and can't I do, you know, um, like I remember like wearing pink, I was like, would get like nervous to wear pink. Cause I was like, oh my gosh. In the early transition of like, what if someone's like, guys don't wear pink. Why are you, why are you wearing pink? Where are you? Must be a woman, you know, just like all of these insecurities popping up. Um, and so. Masculinity has always just been such a topic. And I shared my journey online. Um, and that's how I kinda got my notoriety and popular and stuff was, I was documenting my transition on YouTube and I would always just be really honest about masculinity and being seen in the world as a man. And what does it even mean? So, um, that kind of projected me into the conversation, um, like yesterday, Mike and I were saying how we were on a, um, a panel together about fatherhood and it's like, so I started getting brought in for these masculine topics, like fatherhood and other things, um, into these panels and into these conversations about masculinity. Cause it was like, people always asked me like, well, what is like, how do either, like, how do you know you're a man or what is being a man mean? Like they question my manhood because of how I was born and uh, yeah. And so that, that always makes me be like, You know, it makes me want to just like, really talk about masculinity. Cause I'm like, this is not all I know is that if you trace my whole life, And you took away my gender and like my, like if you took away my gender and my sex, and you had to guess who you were looking at, is this like a little boy or a little girl? I feel like everyone would say a little boy. So what does that mean? Right. And it's not like I have lesbian friends who are super Butch, but like they're proud of being women. And I was not proud. Like I was not, I was like, this is, this is terrible. You know what I mean? Like, um, so yeah, so masculinity has always been a part of my life. And then my role in the transgender community is to talk about being a man, be, you know, what does that even mean? What does that look like? Um, how can we be good men? Um, you know, whatever, like good in a broad sense. And I think then, you know, I got on the cover of Men's Health magazine and that really solidified me as like the trans man. Who talks about masculinity and, you know, cause the whole, like the whole time I was there and every interview I did around that, that was 2015, late 2015, early 2016. Um, it was just all about like masculinity. What is it to be a man? How did you know you were a man? Da man, man, man, man, man. So that's kind of like projected me into that conversation even further. And again, like just going back to what I said earlier, it's always interested me because no one taught me now. I don't assume that your dad, Mike sat you down and was like, Mike, this is how you be a man. Like I don't think that's, but I do think that we learned from like, I can assume, cause I learned from the other girls around me when I was growing up, like how, how to dress and how to act and how to talk and how to walk. And you look at all of these things. And the only people that I was looking at were. What society was projecting as masculinity. So I, mymasculinity is purely a product of society, which means it's hella flawed and like really misogynistic and, you know, follows the patriarchy and just like is not, not one that, like, I have a son, like not one that I would want my son to grow up knowing. Um, but also feel lucky cause something about my transition and the discovery of who I was, makes me question a lot of things. Like I kind of question almost everything. Um, so I think that when I'm like acting out when early in my transition, when I'm like acting out all of these like misogynistic things, I'm just like. I feel nervous to wear pink and I'm not going to, but why, like, why is it such a big deal? Like, why is it a big deal if I order a free drink? Like, what is the big deal? If I like this new J-Lo romcom, like, why is this a big deal? Like, what is the problem? You know? Um, so yeah, that, that's kind of like my why I'm here and why I've continued the conversation.
Mike
What is there a, so like, I would say during your transition, and maybe even to present day, I just have a question about this part is do you, was there a lot of time spent trying to fit in. The man box, like in a way let's just call it the man box, right?
Aydian
Yeah.
Mike
Cause like when you were younger, it sounded like you didn't fit into the, to the little girl box. Right. And so now it's just like, cause you, you say like, am I wearing pink? Should I not wear pink? Does this mean I'm not gonna be a man? How's this gonna, what the perception is going to be there? Is that something that still goes on with you today?
Aydian
Oh yeah, totally. Absolutely. Uh, fitting into the man box was the only goal when I first started transitioning because you have to think of it. Like societaly the world just saw me as like a very, you know, I D I self identified as a Butch lesbian. So it was like, you know, I think people treat Butch lesbians, like kind of like with a little bit of like brother Boyness, but like there's still a girl and that's always clear at the end of the day. So I wanted to remove myself from that and really fit. It was like, well, if I could act, walk, talk. Look and act, you know, fully like a dude and even in times, like I'll sell from it. Like even at times, like, be like, be that misogynist. Like it almost, it solidifies me in the male box. It's like, well, I mean, I'm definitely a man. I mean, look at how I'm dressing and I'm talking and I'm when music I'm listening to. And right. Like there there's no questions because if I got questioned at that time, I mean, it was just unsafe. I mean, still unsafe to this day, but I came out in 2009, so. Before Laverne Cox before. I mean, any, I mean, I used to tell people in the LGB community that I was transgender and they were like, huh, but you came out as transgender in 2009, correct? Yeah. Yeah. So it was like a long freaking time ago before, you know, again, people didn't know what it was. Um, so, so yeah, fitting into that box and even today, definitely. So like, if I'm in a room or I'll even just talk about us, right. So like when we were on our trip, like, what am I fear I
Mike
was going to next question was what was it like when we were traveling together and your thought?
Aydian
Yeah. Yeah. Cause I'm just like, I used to do this a lot more, not so much anymore. Like not really now, but I used to just be like, oh my gosh, like, am I, I, I thought that people would be able to tell that I wasn't like born a man just by like the way I sat or something or like my mannerisms. Right. Like I'm Italian. So I talk with my hands. I was raised as a girl, so I had. I have characteristics that are more feminine than masculine just by nature. Right. Um, and I always thought that those little things would call me out. So like when we were on our trip, I had fear leading up to the trip. Cause I was just like, oh man, like, is he gonna notice? Like just how different we are? Like, is he going to notice that like, oh, I noticed the way, I don't know. I like it's stupid stuff. Like how I say hi to someone or how, like, if I shake someone's hand, like I always feel like, okay, I have to act like, I know how to shake someone's hand. Like, all right, here we go, look you in the eye and I'm going to give you a three shakes and that's it. Or like, you know what I mean? Um, and so, yeah, I think not having known you in a very physical way, meaning we've only talked on the phone and stuff like that. And it was one of the few times that we were spending a lot of time together. Um, yeah, I just was afraid. Like I was like, oh man, like, is it. Not that I thought that, of course, like, you know, I'm transgender, but just making sure my insecurity was like, am I going to be pushed out of like, how he sees me as just another guy, because he's going to be spending a chunk of time with me and he's going to, I don't know, see this or that, or I'm going to say something or act a certain way that he, like, he's going to have a radar go off. That'd be like, oh, see, that's why he's trans. Oh yep. There's his transness again,
Mike
you're almost projecting onto me that I am auditing you as a man..
Aydian
Absolutely
right.
Mike
Yep. Because society is doing that itself as we speak. Right. Like, so it's just like, oh, it's like, you're at a hundred percent man, when you and I started traveling together and then you can only go down from there. Like now you're only a 50 you've made, you've lost 50 points, right? Yeah. Okay. Got it.
Aydian
Oh yeah. Yeah. Um, so yeah, so, and at that happens in all hyper-masculine situations. So like if I'm just meeting a new, like less now, and which is part of this whole, like, you know, healing process for me, I think, and like stepping into my, my enoughness. And part of why I'm here too, is because I know that this is going to help me and it's going to help other transmen and it's going to help CIS men. But I mean, right. Like we all do things for also for our fucking self. So like, selfishly, I'm like, this is going to make me feel more confident in who I am.
Mike
Exactly.
Aydian
Let's do this, you know? Um, but
Mike
you're doing it to help people, but we're really like doing it for ourselves. I mean, anything that we do in life, we're doing it for ourselves. It, you know, and so there is a benefit of, there's a saying that we always have, and I don't know who said this, but we always say it within Kate and I like, we teach what we need to learn.
Aydian
Yeah.
Mike
So it's every, you know, it's like you think about anybody, what they're teaching and to be like, well, that's what that person actually needs to learn right. In that way. Right. And so you can backtrack to be like, oh, I see why that person is doing that. You know, because of this. And that's not always true. Right. But a lot of the times it is we're teaching what we need to learn.
Aydian
Yeah yeah. And then I think as. There's the illusion that you've learned at all. And maybe there's just not as much to learn, but there's small things to continue to learn. Right. Right. There's a lot of people look at me in the trans male community and they're like, oh, like, you're so confident. And you're, so, you know, you, you're confident in your masculinity or, you know, you're like be on the cover of men's health. Like I was like super ripped and everything. And they're like, oh, like, you know everything about food and this and that. And I'm like, ah, let's like, take it 17, notches back. Okay. Um, just like you, I'm just, you know, I think I've just opened to the process of like healing it and knowing that that will make me a better man, it'll make me a better human and a better father, also husband. I mean, all of the things, if I can just be confident in who I am and trust that my masculinity and my manhood is. Real right. Cause I think that's a lot of what you were saying. Like, society's always questioning you. Like, is this really you just playing? Like, are you just pretending? Like, you're just like dressing up, you want a beard? So you're like, I'm gonna shoot myself with freaking hormones every damn week. You know what I mean? Um, so yeah, so that's, you know, that's how I, that is how I got here.
Mike
Well, let's get some, like, I want to ask some detailed questions. Like you're married. How long have you been married?
Aydian
So married 10 years. This January, 2022 will be 10 years.
Mike
Okay. And then you have one son. How old is this?
Aydian
Uh, he's going to be three. Okay. Very soon.
Mike
And then. Talk to me about kind of the background for people like listening, like how have you made money? So like what type of jobs have you done previously? Like the last five years since you've been in the, you know, really outspoken for the trans community, what has been your revenue sources? So a business person.
Aydian
I know it's like, I don't know if everyone really cares about this, but I get it, Mike. It's fine. You're you're here,
Mike
I don't know your background story. So what is it like, what kind of things have you done in your life?
Aydian
So I went to college and dropped out and then I went to, I dropped out before I flunked out. I was like, I'm flunking. So I'm just going to leave, you know, it's like, you can't fire me. I quit type of thing. Um, and then I went to pastry art school. I did really well. I got an awesome job at the Garden City Hotel. Then I moved to Florida and continued working for a very high end as a sous chef. So. I really found a niche that I was really good at. Um, and then I started making these videos on YouTube star and then started getting asked to speak different places. Got on Men's Health, went on Ellen, askedspeak at more places. Um, started a clothing company. And then I just, I started being an advocate and an advocate for the trans community. Meaning I started going to colleges and speaking, I started going to businesses and speaking, started consulting for companies. Um, at the same time, my social influence was growing. So like, you got more followers, right? Like AKA, I got more followers. And then I started working with companies. Some was a little mix of consulting and influencing. Um, and then some of it was just like, Hey, like, you know, we see that you're wearing Nike. Do you want to do a pride of pride thing for us? I'd be like, yeah, that sounds great. I'll be paid to do what I'm already doing. Here you go. Thanks. You know? Um, and that was really how I started making. And I had a clothing company for the transgender community that was really popping at one time. And so that was how I was making money. And then, you know, all of that was going really well. I started, I left the. I turned my clothing company into a non-profit and started volunteering for that. So I stopped making that revenue source because my speaking started really picking up. And so I was traveling, I mean, at least once on average, probably twice a month, um, traveling, speaking at different colleges and stuff, which was something I'd love to get back into doing. And then I, I had read on my website was moving to Austin, Texas was going to be awesome. I had like six events lined up. And when you, in speaking, it's like, once you, if you do a chunk, they just start to kind of roll in. And then if you go flat for too long, they like really have a hard time coming back up, back to life. Um, and so I, I knew that like, this is going to be great. We moved to Austin because I could travel quicker. Cause we were living on the west coast and like going to New York was like a whole day. And I was like, oh my gosh. If we lived in the middle of the country, I could just like, be here, be here, be here. Um, and. Then COVID hit. And I lost, like, I lost like no joke, like a third of my yearly income in 14 days.
Mike
Um wow.
Aydian
Yeah. And I knew that it was, and it was probably more because it was like, again, it was like, okay, I lost all my job. Yeah. Right. Cause then it was like, okay, well I lost all my jobs through from like, what was that like March all the way to end of June.
And then everyone's like, summer it's going to open up things are going to be back in summer and then just nothing ever came again
Mike
Cue a year and a half later.
Aydian
Exactly, exactly. And so I knew that I had to shift. I was like, shit, I need to shift. So I have a friend, um, shout out to Tyler. He is a maps coach, uh, really high elite coach. And, um, he, we started talking, he wanted to help me as a friend and, um, started teaching me how to coach. We started. One-on-one sessions. I did coaching with some people, um, for free and he would monitor and like help me and guide me and I've read a couple of books and, um, I still meet with him once a month to kind of just continue up the conversation and like the training of coaching. And I started coaching and my coaching is based on fitness and life. I tend to mix the two together because my main, I teach all people, but my main customer avatar, so to speak is a trans men and trans masculine people. And so a lot of time, I mean, my technique is to like use the fitness and the body to bring the person in. Cause every like who doesn't want to like look really ripped and love their body, but then like it always. It always turns into like actual, real stuff, you know,
Mike
a highlight that's sexy. And then it's like, okay,
Aydian
well, I pretty much just like use that as my bait. And then I bring them onto the boat and I'm like, welcome to your life. Yeah. We're going to dive in, um,
Mike
this is what it looks like.
Aydian
Exactly. Um, and so I've been doing that and that's been really, I mean, I've been really thriving, like both just client-wise I feel like it's, I mean, I've been mentoring trans men for the last 11 years. I just like, my buddy was like, you've been doing this. You just haven't been getting paid for it. Right. Like, you know, I have relationships with trans men that I've been talking to. The funniest thing is like a 20 year old would be like, I started watching you when I was 12 and I'm like, oh, okay. Like that makes me feel old. And like, it's a little weird, but it's also okay. Here we are. You know, like, uh, yeah, so that's, that's, that's how I make my money. Mike.
Mike
That's good. Aydian, I think it's very important. Um, what, so you're speaking, like, what do you talk about? So if somebody was hiring you, what are you doing on your speaking tour just so we can, you know, just so I have some, you know, I don't know,
Aydian
so yeah. Yeah. So usually it all depends on what they're bringing me in for. Right. So I've spoken at businesses, um, who just want to kind of like do an informal. Diversity and inclusion trading. It's not an actual training, but it's like I come in, I talk about the trans community. I talk about pronouns and how to create a good environment for all types of LGBTQ people. I share a little bit of my story. That's a lot of it's, it's usually a different version of that, right? So I'll do that at like businesses who don't really have any LGBT experience, but they want to start learning. Um, and then I'll talk at colleges to just, you know, either share my story, talk about masculinity, talk about, um, like my most popular is like my journey to authenticity. So I share my story of how I kind of like worked through my own shit. Um, and that brought me to all of the success that I've had. And then. Show people techniques and give them the invitation to do their own searching. Um, and then, and then a lot of panels and stuff too, just like sitting on panels. So like panels about masculinity panels, about transness panels, about fatherhood panels about, I mean, you know, it's not my favorite stuff, but like influencer, like, oh, how'd you become an influencer dah, dah, dah.
Um, which I just, I don't over relate with being an influencer, even though a lot of people call me that because like now people are like, oh, what do you want to do? They're like, oh, we want to be an influencer. And like, when I started my stuff, like nobody was being paid for anything like it, you know, it just kind of, it was very organic.
And then all of a sudden companies were like, Hey, it's pride month. Can I give you some money? And I was like, sure, like, you can totally help me pay my bills. Cause I am having trouble paying them right now. Um, and so that's actually kind of teetered off because I stopped. You know, you have to have a certain kind of look to have that like on Instagram and certain types of photos.
And I, I didn't want, I noticed at one point in my life that like all, like I was it just like I was catering to them. I didn't know where my next paycheck was coming. Cause I didn't know when they were going to say yes to a proposal or someone was going to come knocking at my doors and, and we were about to have a baby.
And I was like, this is not safe like this. Like, like what if just no one fucking ever shows up again, like this is going to be treacherous. Um, so yeah, so,
Mike
well it's also, I mean, we're at the time where companies have overpaid for influence marketing, let's say,
Aydian
right.
Mike
So they've paid too much money in there. If they're cutting back on all of that stuff, definitely in the last year and a half, they've seen a tremendous revenue dip with like the craziness that's gone on from the economy business side. But then also for you, like you just sharing your story. And I think it's very, you downplay the thing about making money.
Like you did it here and we've talked about this before, but really just like, well, nobody wants to hear about how you're making money. It's like, no people do, like people need to make money. And especially what you've brought up to me in the trans community, it's like thinking about like, you, can't like not making money in this environment or being included really important because the one thing that happened in your story is like you were waiting for companies to come find you. Right. And now what's happened in the last year and a half. Is that you're taking responsibility for yourself
Aydian
right.
Mike
In a way that's much different than, um, what was the focus before. Right. So it's actually, it's pretty cool to like, have that transformation and th you know, it happens in situations like you shared where it's like, I got a third of my income cut in 14 days now. Like, what the hell is going on? Well, how am I going to, what's going to happen? So, yeah. It's pretty dope. So, yeah.
Aydian
Oh, thanks. I appreciate that. It does make me also think that I definitely was in the influencer game when people were paying way too much,
Mike
the, for sure,
Aydian
I was like making way too much money off of like one stupid Instagram now for a long time. Right. And that also has jaded me. Cause now people are like, oh, I'll give you like, this is 10. Not even, not even. They're like, I'll give you 250 bucks and I'm like to represent, you know, this liquor. And I'm like, first of all, like not my audience group. Right. And like, no, like I'm just not, I'm not going to do that. Um, so yeah. So no, it's a good,
Mike
it's the thing to where it's. Expanded right. W when you started doing all of this, there was, let's just say there was 10 people that were getting paid to buy.
Aydian
Right?
Mike
Right. And now they've branded, they've branched out so much.
Aydian
It's like 150,
Mike
right? Yes, exactly. Got so big in the algorithms, change everything, and then people aren't seeing it. And then you've got to spend the money to, so it's this endless cycle of, you know, it's like playing the game and paying attention to it. So yeah, I am. And I had a baby. I ain't got time for that anymore. That's true. Yeah. And so, yeah, I guess you're right. Working with select brands because you're having an income source for yourself.
That's coming from this other thing that you've created for yourself.
Aydian
Yeah, no, it's true. Now, now, you know, 75% of the brands I work with are very small and they don't pay me a lot of money, but I believe in what they're doing. And I like. Yeah, I get to talk to the CEO and I have a relationship with them and it's more meaningful to me. So it's so dry. Cool.
Mike
Great. Should I talk about myself?
Aydian
Yeah. I want to hear all about Indiana and the Wyoming. Sorry,
Mike
Wyoming. I don't remember that much about, I was 18 months when I left, so they did go back there a long time. It was like a decade ago and we drove through Casper, Wyoming, where I was born. Wild story about Casper though. I grew up kind of in Valparaiso, Indiana. And there was one of my good friends that I went to school with. And then there's another friend that we had that we had in the same Valparaiso town. And he dated her, like it was Jamie dating, Brandon. We were all born in the same hospital around like two years apart. And we all ended up in this small, you know, in this town about praising Indiana. So it's kind of wild, but, um, Yeah. So, I mean, kind of starting off with what you talked about regarding the masculinity piece to end up how we got here together, the podcast, I never, when you introduced this podcast to me and say, let me just focus this on masculinity. It's something I've never thought about. Like I had to look up the definition of what masculinity was, right. And like I'm fitting in, you were as a trans man trying to fit into the man community. I was already in the man community right in this man box, let's say so it's like, how did I operate inside of that man box? What? It was a lot of misogynistic stuff that took place. There was a lot of homophobic things that took place when I was younger. Um, you know, just all of the stuff that wasn't very nice and like that I wouldn't do now to kind of, and then I played a lot of sports as I was growing up inside of Indiana baseball and basketball.
Uh, I was pretty good at baseball. Um, which was great. You know, I had a lot of fun playing that, but it was very, my life really revolved around sports. I was in Cub Scouts and boy Scouts. When I was younger, I did boy Scouts for one year and then I didn't want to do it anymore, but it was this piece of, I w I didn't think about it, you know, like as much thought as you've put into it, I thought about it from the success standpoint of the cars, the house, the money, the, the body, like the abs.
And so I looked at it from the societal images of movies and music, and what I was taking in from that is what I. My definition of what success as a man was. Right. And that's where I was headed in that direction was going to go. Um, my dad, both of my parents are still, or both of my parents, my parents were still married. My mom and dad, they both are still married. That sounded weird when I said it, but they live in, I think it's been like 30, actually. I don't know how long they've been married, like 32, 33 years or so. Um, but for a good chunk of my life, my father would, he worked international for a long time over in Asia, um, working for BP and.
Uh, from my understanding, it was a safety manager where he would monitor as they're building refineries and things like this before Hong Kong really took off. He was actually now my business mind, if I would've seen what my dad was doing back then, I would have invested in BP stock and Amoco stock and be like a multimillionaire because I would have been like, oh my dad's doing all of this. They're getting ready to explode. And then Hong Kong took off. Right. And so we actually were able fortunate enough to spend the summer in between fifth and sixth grade in Hong Kong. And so I had a little culture or experience there, um, from a young age and then. Um, but he traveled a lot, you know, internationally.
And then also domestically after he stopped doing international travel. So I had a dad that was there, but it was very, it was kind of in and out as the weeks went on, et cetera, during the week, like during the week he wasn't there, but on the weekends he would come home. So from that, and then we used to do a lot of fixing the, like cleaning the car or doing house repairs or renovations.
So for me, it was as a man was like doing things I became as my therapist calls, like the doer, the doer Mike. Right. So that is. Uh, being a man was to take care of the responsibility. It's the money making the money. And then you're the doer, doing the thing, you're just doing stuff. Right. And so that's what my kind of upbringing has been around my own exploration with how I became a man today.
And it was a lot in this doermentality. So, and that went on for like a law. And I didn't understand when I would hear conversations about men being lazy and, or not participating in life or in relationships as I've become older. Like we have marriages, et cetera, friends, and hear things like this. And, and I didn't quite understand it, but then I would also have.
My parents, uh, my mom would like tell me things not to do when I was younger, that my dad would do. Right. And so that is not healthy as a child to get that, you know, it's like my parents should have saw a therapist, but it was in a way like their kids were their therapist in a way. Right. And that's not a healthy dynamic to have a parental relationship.
And so it became the things I learned from my mom saying like, don't do this, like what your dad is doing type attitude. Right. So I just started taking that in and I thought if I just didn't do those things, I would be this great guy in this way. Right. And so also I think, because I was predominantly majority of the time, I would say probably 75% raised by my mom and 25% of my dad.
I put it that way. I could be off on the percentages, but I had this, I am like more empathetic than I noticed that other men in my. Situation are in life that I've become friends with. So it became this exploration and then even being, you know, partnering with you, being a trans man showing up to this podcast, like being a trans person.
I don't know what that's like, like when I first entertained like it's con I was like, wait, I don't understand. Like, so the person was born a woman, and then now they want to be a man. And so how does that work? Like, what is that thought process like? Cause then I think about what goes on in their head, you know, as they're growing up and what's that like, and you've shared a lot of that today, so thank you for doing that.
But it was, but then I got to the point where I'm like, well, it's none of my, like, who cares? Like why, why do I have to know all the details? Right. So I went to school for engineering and business. So my brain thinks in systems and structures and order. So when I think about it from that perspective of. A trans person transitioning.
I'm like, I think in the steps.
Aydian
Right.
Mike
And I think about why what's the details of all of this. What is the reason for all of this? And, and then at the end results, like it doesn't, it's like, just listen to their story. For me, it's like, listen to somebody's story. And I never was like, it was never, I never had a problem.
I guess you could say with the LGBTQ community, like, I was just always open to what people were going through, et cetera. Like I had a friend in college that I would see date this guy. And then I was working at a bar and they're making out with a woman, you know, and then they look at me and like, sh and I'm like, no problem.
I'm just like, you know, be into whoever you're into. And, you know, it was always very a open dynamic where I was able to, I was, I always wanted to learn about what people were going through. And so I saw a lot of different dynamics. I noticed when I S I started drinking when I was 16 years old and started smoking weed.
And doing drugs at that time, between 16 to 28, I had about a 12 year run. That was pretty solid. And it was a lot of fun and a lot of excitement. But I also noticed I became a different person when I was under the influence of substances. And it ended when I stopped actually drinking alcohol. I just realized like I was becoming a different person.
I wasn't happy with as a man. Like I just wasn't happy with that. So I went I've since then I've went on this exploration to kind of like have sex by not being drunk. Right. Like having sex sober. What's that feel like it's like expressing my feelings in a way to my wife in that manner to like my parents having real conversations with people, um, and then not blocking what kind of the feelings that were coming up in this that I used to do when I was younger, um, from the substances perspective and what I used to think was cool.
Uh, not necessarily there anymore. So I think when you first proposed this to me, And going on this journey, it was even something like two days agoI wasn't in a good space, like putting the kids to bed and it became really hard. And I was just, I get like angry about them not listening, you know, kids. And then I like my it's like my central nervous system rises up and my cortisol rises up and I'm just like, want to throw my kids off out of the window type thing.
Right. It gets to that extreme, you know, I don't actually do that, but that's like the feeling that those of you who have children know what I'm talking about. Yes. And my wife says, can I give you a reflection last night? I'm on the couch. And like, sure, go ahead about how to talk to Penelope. And you're like, I notice this is happening.
And I'm like, I know it. I know it happens and it overtakes my body. So, and then she was just like, well, thank you so much for receiving that information. I was like, I know it's a problem. Like I know it's a problem in relation to my children, but I don't know what to do about it. So it's the place where instead of getting defensive, where I used to get a long time ago or very sarcastic, because I grew up in a very passive, is it passive, aggressive?
What's the term it's like it's sarcasm, but it's a, it's not real. Like pat is a passive aggressive. I feel like it's passive aggressive. Yeah. Where it's like, oh, that's nice. You know, or the attitude of right. Oh, okay. So, I mean, that's kind of how my family related to each other in this way, where it was very passive aggressive, we weren't kind of open to the dynamic of like, that's how our, the dynamic of the Watts' household growing up was and still was as we, as we get older.
So like actually connecting with humans is something that I'm learning how to do in a way that's respective. for that form. And you can see how disconnected we are, especially here in the United States. I mean, for a long time, like our whole history, but really in the last, like 10 years it's been exposed so great.
Like, and we can see this place and just how the polarity has increased in the, the hate that's happened. And, and so for me, it's like, how do I show up to be a better man, but not lose myself along the way. So I started a company with my wife 10 years ago, and it focused on women entrepreneurs and business owners it's really evolved, but it was like helping people with get clarity on their financials.
And then also, and then it's evolved into this women, this women entrepreneurship type. And so in that process, I started realizing. I would hear stories of three of our friends were divorced around the same time. So I'd hear their story of what it was like to go through divorce from their men, their men.
And then I heard a lot of more women about men. And I think I explained this in our last episode where I just felt manhood was on my shoulders to fix. Yeah. So it got to the point where I wasn't confident in my own ability anymore because I was being too jaded by the input that was coming in there. And then I didn't know how to fully show up for myself anymore.
And then I would try to overcompensate being angry or like the macho, excuse me, like being the macho Mike walking around, or I'd be kind of mansplaining too much in this way. Just not feeling, um, confident in myself. So I would be insecure. And so with the podcast, when it started coming down, it was like the perfect timing where to keep building that strength in who I am to realize like what I am talking about.
I know what I'm talking about. I've had a really in the last, since we started rolling this thing out to where we are now, I've had a build the, like the stamina that I'm confident in what I'm talking about again, which I knew that, but it was kind of taken away in this. It was like, I let it, I let the kind of the input from the outside society take my strength away in that way.
So I've been building up that strength to, to be at a place that I know what's happening. So that's kind of how we're here together regarding my man experience.
Aydian
Yeah. So what do you like, what does holding on to, because you kind of talked a little bit about how you kind of like. Took on the persona at the younger age of just like the success that you saw.
And you're like, okay, I'm just going to go do that. And then about how it was like working with Kate and working with all these women. Right. And you were mentioning how it was like, you kind of took on all of that weight, you know what I mean? And like, okay, well I'll just go fix all of the things, the doer in you. Right. I'll just do everything and no one else, no other guy will have to do it. I'll just do it all for us. Um, which I'm sure everyone would be sure. Go ahead. Go for it.
Mike
I love when people do things for me, I don't have a problem or he's like, let me get that bill for you. No problem. Go right ahead. You can pay, you can take me out to dinner.
No problem. No worries.
Aydian
So what does it look like to you to like still, you also mentioned like holding onto who you are, like what does that look like to realize that
Mike
the past couple of years I have never. Really done it for me in like for Mike, right? Like if we bring it back for anybody that's been in therapy, they always talk about like what your five-year-old or little boy right.
Is walking around there. And what's that like? Right. So when I was younger, I was playing sports in a way just cause I was kind of good at them. And I stayed in things too long that I didn't want to be there. You know, like Kate told me when she was younger, she was really good at swimming. She would like win races, but she didn't want to do it anymore.
She was quit. And I was like, what? Like, and she's quit so many sports because she was like, I don't want to do that more. She just quit. I'm like w w w w why? Like, what are you doing? You can be the best. You can be a good medal. You know, I just don't want to do it. Like, it was so different. Like I'm like you push through, you get it done.
And so what I realized along the journey, I went to engineering school because everybody said, that's what you do when you're good at math and science. So I just become right. But I double majored in mechanical engineering. Excuse me. Sorry. Hold on. I double majored at Purdue University in mechanical engineering technology and organizational leadership and supervision.
Slow down to say that that's a little mouthful.
Aydian
Yeah
Mike
. And I did the mechanical engineering degree because everybody said that was math and science, but I was really good at the OLS is the short name for it. And I really liked that more. And that's what got me, my first job out of college, working at Phillip Morris, done in North Carolina, running cigarette manufacturing like bay.
And, but I really liked it, but I didn't value that degree as much as the engineering part because engineers are. Are ranked more highly than like a business supervisor. Right, right. In the scope of society over the world, even though the supervisor prisoners is way harder than somebody like sitting at a computer, designing something, not taking anything away from the engineers out there.
I love you people. But when you're running a bay of 50 to 60 human beings and you have to at 25 or 26, try to convince these people that you're engaged in their life, that they've been running this machine for 30 years. Right? Like that takes personnel skills that you have to develop. So I think, and then what I, even, when I started working with Kate, when we started, my voice was 50, let's say 50, 50, like she had skills.
I had skills. We showed up at 50 50, but as our business started to grow, she started working more directly towards the. And then the voice, the transition of our business, um, partnership kind of moved to 60, 40, 70, 30, 80, 20. And I would say now it's like 95 5 because I still run our finances of our business, but, and other stuff like that's there, but mainly just like kind of these smaller pieces.
And I didn't understand what it was like to be a woman, frankly, that's it. Right. And so obviously for me, I, what happened was, is I started taking in the information of the women. The women were saying about like kind of their guys and it started to take me off my path. And then I started feeling like I had to adjust to fit in this box to allow my skill set, to show up to Kate, to like show up in this weird dynamic to our marriage, which in turn has actually.
I heard it in a way by me not being fully in my power. So I think in the last 18 months to two years, it's, I'm actually doing the things that I want to do, which is strange because before for a long time we do the things for our parents, right? Like we think that these, so I think a lot of it came to like making my dad happy or making my mom happy.
And I S I stopped that at about 16, 17 years old, kind of not showing up for them. It takes some people longer. Some people not at all, they go through this, but for me, it was definitely in the last year and a half has been like, what does Mike want to do? And what seems fun to him as an adult man. And like, where can I best show up to be able to help that?
And that's what this podcast is able to do.
Aydian
I love that. So what do you thinking, w how do you, we're going to keep us 50 50, you.
Mike
That's the goal. Yeah.
Aydian
That's the goal. I think it's interesting too. Cause when you were just saying like, oh, I didn't know what it's like to be a woman. I know. Go ahead.
Mike
No, I mean, I don't know. I think the idea of 50 50 is good, but it's like we both have, we both show up a hundred percent with our own skills. Right. So I think to create a partnership where we both feel in power, but like you could be speaking again and traveling all over the United States. So it's like the flexibility of, if we start veering where we're only going to talk to women entrepreneurs, then I know it's time for me to get out.
Aydian
Right.
Mike
So I think from that perspective where Kate knew where she was going in our dynamic and I knew where she was going and I knew it was the right way. I didn't know. I lost myself in, how do I fully show up to support that? Because I thought me being the. Which is a really good person to do. And I was able to do the things, but it started to be the doer for our marriage and then our, also our business.
So what ended up happening, it started to affect the relationship between Kate and I on a personal level and not in a bad, I mean, we're still married. We have a great marriage, but it, we started to notice this dynamic happening. So I think for us, I think as long as we are still enjoying what we're doing, I think we'll be okay
Aydian
by the way. Um, oh no, it was just saying 50 50.
Mike
Yeah.
Aydian
And then, and then I was, then you started saying, I was like, yeah, well, it could, I think, like you said, being able to flow, right? So like, if something happens in your life, like, it might be like 70, 30 for this month or two, because the Mike's got shit going on or then it might flip because it's like, oh man, now Aydian's got some shit going on, you know?
Right. Or maybe this shit is good shit. Maybe it's, you know, maybe it's amazing. You've got. Consulting gig that you've really got to spend more time on and it's, we've got to shift some of the, you know what I mean?
Mike
Yeah. And I think it's the, cause it might be, you're like, I don't want to do this anymore.
And then it's like, I buy you out of the company. Right. Or vice versa. But I think the awareness that we're going into it sets it up really good. We're both older. Like we've, you know, I've it's for me, I'm saying I'm older. I'm, we're going to notice dynamics with between the two of us that it's like, something's off here, you know, what's going on.
Yeah. And I think it was harder with kind of the partnership with I had with Kate because she's my wife. Right. So all I didn't, the stuff didn't come up from just a business partnership. It was also coming up for both of us in a we're also where you're bringing. Our relationship, mishegossof like family dynamics into the partnership there and then also business.
So it's a little bit more, it's more complicated, right?
Aydian
Yeah. And then you add your own babies.
Mike
'So we also had kids on that day. I live currently in outside of Portland, Maine
Aydian
Do you know where you live, are you sure?
Mike
Yeah. I'm still trying to figure it out. I mean, I've lived before the house we live in now. I moved 20 before I moved in this house in 2017. This was my 20th move in 16 years. And so now we're getting ready to move again to Miami. And so we're moving to Miami. I have two daughters that are six, almost six, and about three-and-a-half. Penelope and Ruby and, uh, Katie and I were married in 2014. We started traveling the country, which is a whole nother episode, but in 2011.
So it's, you know, we started traveling together in 2011 and we've been together since then. We never dated, we basically got a car and drove 10 months for 34,000 miles. Yeah. So
Aydian
it's going to be your first book. 10 months and 34,000 miles, the story of Kate and Mike, and now you'll be moving again because in the next year or two, because you're not buying the house.
So, uh, you'll get 21 moves in before you hit my 2015 years.
Mike
You'll be first six months of this year. That was my 21st,
Aydian
23rd and all these things. Uh, so I looked up, uh, you know, cause we're fancy, we've got a person who checks a fact checker. So I've always hated the fact checker, passive aggressive behavior is a pattern of indirectly expressing negative feelings instead of openly addressing them.
For example, a passive aggressive person might appear to agree perhaps even enthusiastically with another person's request, but actually not agree. Yes. Yep. And I feel like our comedy, the way we joke with each other comes up in a very, it's very sarcastic and passive aggressive. And I grew up with that household also.
So, uh, I think that's where like we get along in that with, but it does get confusing too, because sometimes I'm like, is Mike being serious or is he not? But then I. But I think the, the grown folk in me is like, I just asked you, I'm just like, can you clarify? Because this text, that's why we actually don't text Mike and I rarely text, we just voice talk almost everything, unless it's like, okay.
Or I agree. Or like, you know, a thumbs up. Cause it's just, it gets too messy with that. You
Mike
we've had too many conversations after texting like 10 to each other to be like, why don't we just hop on the phone?
Right. And then I finally got Aiden over to Voxer V O X, E R. And I love that. I like, I use the app all the time with a multiple friends. It's just easier. It doesn't eliminate text messaging, but it just makes things.
Aydian
It eliminates long text. Yeah, I would say for sure. Um, and it helps clarify a lot of things, so, well, Mike, I'm happy you're here. I'm happy that you said yes. Um, and I I'm really looking forward to seeing what this turns into and kind of giving it my all, and I know that it's going to help me and it'll help you and it'll help all the guys out there.
And, um, I'm really like, I'm grateful for this opportunity for this time. Uh, and I don't know if it would have happened if, you know, I didn't get locked down. Didn't have to shift everything in my life. I dunno if that would have happened. So I'm grateful for that. So I thank you for showing up.
Mike
I appreciate it.
Thank you for sending me the note in November.
Aydian
Yes, of course. So, um, anything you want to ask the listeners or have a sign off here?
Mike
You know, it'd be interesting just to hear people's. They don't have to give, you know, cause we spoke for an hour about our own journey, but like, what is it for them about what brought you hearing a man, you know, like what, what is a challenge?
Or you can just say what's a challenge of me. And then also what's a great thing about being a man. You know, I love being a man. I think it's a lot of fun. We have a good time. I like the, I do like the doer that the manhood has taught me. It's very productive. Um, but there is the negative side of it.
Right. It's like having the angel and the devil on your shoulders all the time. Right. So yeah. It's like, what is that? The good and the bad of that you are experiencing as a man listening to this, or if you're not a man or don't identify as a man, what is something regarding men that you think we can improve on and things that.
Aydian
I love that. All right. So I will post that on our Instagram and you can leave your comment of what's the good, and what's the bad of being a man for you personally. It doesn't have to be, I mean, it can be generic if you want, but we'd love to like, you know, get personal, like what's really going on for you.
What's the good, what's the bad. Um, you can follow us on Instagram at the state of men. I will put up a post that is related to this episode and you can drop it down below. We'd love to see that conversation, engage with you all there. Also make sure that you are subscribed to this podcast, especially if you've listened to the first.
And now the second episode, we will love to have you on board. And if you are feeling extra excited, you can go ahead and leave us a review on iTunes or wherever you're listening to this podcast. We appreciate you. We're happy to have you here and we'll catch you in the next episode.